Ronald,

if this is the same topic as Facilitating Internet Access in "Underdeveloped" Areas, then why do we need to start a new thread on it.

Very knowledgeable people have made significant contributions to Facilitating Internet Access in "Underdeveloped" Areas, so I think it might be better to keep the discussion going there (as otherwise this valuable information might get overlooked.

Thanks -- and I look forward to your (and others') contributions!

:) nmw

nmw said:

Ronald,

if this is the same topic as Facilitating Internet Access in "Underdeveloped" Areas, then why do we need to start a new thread on it.

This was a topic that Ronald had put on the board at the Gulu conference and I missed the session, Norbert. I asked Ronald to post a thread that would bring me up to speed on what had been discussed so that hopefully we could continue. Plus, as a newcomer, Ronald got to learn the valuable skill of how to start a new discussion. Thank you for pointing out that some discussions have taken place on a possibly related topic in the past. I for one much prefer dfiscussing under this title than the title of the other thread.

Ronald, thank you for posting this thread. I'm thrilled to hear that some of the Acholi ladies were convinced about the Internet's value as a tool. My own take on the development of internet-based markets in other parts of the world is that it has always been very much grassroots demand driven. In my view, now that the technology is available like we saw in Gulu that can make computers workable using cellphone network technology, the next thing we need to do is get people to understand why they are useful.

I am curious - how do you think computers in your rural area of Kenya would actually be used most, in practical terms?

[Edited by author: Christina Jordan on 08 Mar 2007 06:11 PST: added "at the Gulu conference" for clarity]

OK, Christina -- I'll post a link from the other discussion to over here (I guess that way the links will show that they're related).

I think it was very observant of Ronald to recognize how similar the topics appear to be -- and I also thought that it would be good to "teach" not only how to start a thread, but also raise awareness for the danger of creating parallel threads (is this what people sometimes refer to as "stovepipes"?).

At any rate: thanks for clariying -- maybe the "our" in the title of this thread could also be further clarified?

Norbert asks:

maybe the "our" in the title of this thread could also be further clarified?

I take "our" when posted in the "An Uplift Pavilion for Africa - Kijiweni" group to mean "our African rural communities".

Is there something else it could mean? Onet's rural communities perhaps?

Yes -- and Africa is pretty big, isn't it?

Is the intent to find solutions that work across the entire African continent?

[Edited by author: nmw on 08 Mar 2007 10:48 PST: qwe inserted 2nd paragraph]

Is the intent to find solutions that work across the entire African continent?

Is this necessary? A range of solutions might be best, none of which needs to work everywhere, provided that, wherever you are, there is at least one of the solutions that will work there.

On re-reading this, perhaps that is what you meant.

I prefer the title "Creating digital villages in our rural communities" to the title of an older thread not because of the the word "underdeveloped" in that title, but because this title invites a broader scope than simply Internet access.

The ability to share information with digital devices is a great advantage. It seems easy to highlight the information one can get over the content people in villages can create. It seems good to pay special attention to ways to encourage people in villages to create content to share.

Computers not connected to the Internet can facilitate sharing of locally produced content from many digital sources. Computers can serve as a hub to upload content to be shared on the computer or converted to other media.

On the Gulu Conference threat Olivia Mugabiwre posted about the difficulties of English for many users in Uganda. I responded with a post about using MP3 players as an interface and started a thread to discuss that.

One of the troubles with printing with computer printers is the per-page cost is high. Something I'm interested in is the distribution of useful information on parts of a regular sheet of paper printed by a computer printer to keep costs low.

One of my half-baked ideas along this line is Cracker Jack books. Clearly there is much about that idea that hasn't risen yet, but I want to point out one aspect of the idea. It's so easy to imagine digitally created content in the villages being shared over the Internet that sharing such content with people, say here in the USA, in other media is neglected. I think that small books created locally in villages might have some monetary value. For example a poem in eight little panels might be a card people would be willing to pay for. The small books are just the right size for gift labels.

The sales of such books offer many alternatives. A champion in the USA could get the digital content either online or by a CD sent through the mail. She could then print them out and cut them. Having a selection of Cracker Jack Books created in a village put them on a card which could then be displayed at a local retailer. All the proceeds from the sales of these books could be sent back to the village to help sustain the technology in the village.

On a different topic, most of the posts on this thread seem to me a meta-discussion about the thread itself. Norbert wrote:

"...I also thought that it would be good to "teach" not only how to start a thread, but also raise awareness for the danger of creating parallel threads (is this what people sometimes refer to as "stovepipes"?)."

I'm not sure what the antecedent for "this" is in his question. Does it refer to this thread or to the danger in creating parallel threads? My understanding of "stovepipes" in the context in which Norbert raises is: narrow and linear constraints placed on the sharing of ideas and information. Word Spy perhaps offers relevant etymology.

Ronald's call for ideas hardly seems narrow and rigid. Please correct me if I misunderstand its purpose or other aspects of ONet community mores.

Hi Nobert Christtina and David, i must say that am very happy about the discussions going on in the thread, and Christina says it i posted this topic while in Gulu and so many people have asked me where next.Iwas still dragging my feet on it and as Christina puts it am new,just got to Omidyar and still learning how everything here works.I am sure that Olivia Mugawire will be so excited that this thread is on. Norbert i did write and inform you about what i felt were similarities between thsi topics and wondered if they could be merged. I think that digita villages needs to be looked into a broader perspective as David says because the moment that we narrow it down to internet connections,then we might loose others that we could offer/the communities to offer to us.Whats the take of others.

insightful link nmw pos 2

Good point, Ronald -- and I'm totally ok with this thread.

But no, threads cannot be merged -- so it is always good to check if the same (or a similar) topic has been brought up already. I am also sometimes ashamed to find that something I thought was "new" had actually been brought up and talked about with much more expertise by people who have much more experience and/or knowledge in this or that area -- and quite often: years ago.

So: don't worry about it -- and BTW I also think that building out this idea is very good.

See also some related comments (about "kiosks") I have made on:

• UPLIFT EXPEDITION: The Philo as a Means of Stimulating Microenterprise at omidyar.net

and

• An Internet Driven Project to empower the poorly disadvantaged in Africa with valuable Education, Entrepreneurship, Health and ICT online content at a subsidized cost.

and also (maybe read the whole thread):

Comprehensive Connectivity: Initiative for Global Digital Access

[Edited by author: nmw on 09 Mar 2007 02:42 PST: qwe inserted link Comprehensive Connectivity]

Thank you very much Norbert. I will in future look out more but what we all in agreement is that access need to focus more on the rural areas/marginalised for that matter. This has also helped me discover so much that people have discussed on this same subject. Am new to onet and always learning somethin new everyday. Cheers man

Ronald Otieno Omondi said:

always learning something new everyday

Me too, Ronald -- and I think we're not the only ones who time and again are amazed at how much information is on the site (and/but sometimes a little frustrated about how to find it).

BTW: this is one of the main reasons I am such an "advocate" for using feedback points to reward comments and discussions (these two I would refer to as "content") rather than people. One of the difficulties with this, however, is that people find content to be good or bad for many different reasons (and there are no "feedback labels" [or "tags"] available; besides, something Pierre Omidyar has referred to as a "poor-man's tagging system" ;)

Only a couple people have been involved in such tagging (let alone "building" such systems out).

I feel that much of information "quality control" also rests on the shoulders of group owners (this is actually quite analagous to my own aspirations to build out a large portfolio of high-traffic keyword domain names -- namely: to have "subject experts" to guide and evaluate the information on each topic [1]).

:) nmw

Thats a wonderful idea Norbert.I think that learning is a continuous process till you die. Anyway i still believe that am learning and yet to learn more in omidyar yet.In the meantime we have to move on and implement the ideas that we are dscussing online or what do you say?

When you say "move on and implement", do you mean online or offline?

Ronald, I am still wondering I am curious - how do you think computers in your rural area of Kenya would actually be used most (or best), in practical terms?

I meant that the people who have already developed some programs to this effect should just carry and act as pilot projects that can be duplicated. The best practical way that this might be used would be basically as learning tools,connecting tools and also share to the whole world what they have. In my community there exist those who live in semi arid dry lands and yet a big river passes through this place and not much is being done with it. HIV infection is just too high in this place and if computers could be introduced with some materials that talk about this disease more, a lot of stigma towards this may be reduced and the fight will go a notch higher. Some parts in my produce sugarcane,the waste of this product that is the baggasse lies tonnes of it unused yet this could easily be converted to serve as an alternative source of energy and reduce the overdependance on trees alone. Next will be to equip young people thruogh easy to use kits that they can share through peer to peer learning than engage in risky sexual behaviuor. I had mentioned to Kalabamu before that child Mothers occupy over 80% of the matermity beds.These are girls who get pregnant before the age of eighteen. This list is endless and it would also be a source of recreation for young people whenever they go online and chat with the rest of the world.I know that computers in my rural village would bring a great change to the people. Hope that this gives you a bit of insight into why i was talking about the digital villages.

John,

I edited a market book while I was in Africa called "The Human Life: Vistas and Verdicts" by Okechukwu Ogbuka. See http://www.indiana.edu/~libsalc/ african/onitsha.html for more on this genre. The genre was pretty lively even into the early 1990s.

I like the idea of using the internet to disseminate information of value but distributing marketable texts in hard copy. Are there other hybrid ideas for creating connectivity that goes both ways to remote areas?

Thank you very much Rory for the link. I think that MP3 players are an important tool for creating many-to-many communication channels. But as has already been mentioned mobile phones are a tool that people are beginning to exploit in so many clever ways. One of the blogs I follow is White African written by Eric Hersman. His most recent post struck me as really important. He writes:

"When I first started talking about Zangu, a mobile platform that I envisioned would connect Africans, I thought of it on the global scale. I was wrong. The strength Zangu (or any technology like it) will not be found in the connecting of Africans on an Africa-wide scale, but in the creation of a platform that connects people on the local level."

Last night I came across a Busoga Rural Open Source & Development Initiative (BROSDI) Ronald's points about HIV are so meaningful to me, I am so touched by his deep understanding and compassion for others. BROSDI's model of peer-to-peer knowledge sharing about HIV/AIDS using ICTs is worth a look.

BROSDI's platform for sharing agricultural knowledge has a very innovative feature of using SMS

BROSDI's model is very innovative and exciting. It's also locally produced. LOL so for what it's worth Ronald, I'm at your service; I want to riff off your ideas and ideas coming from your community.

John I tend to agree with Mr. Hersman - I've been bringting the LiA community online here in a global setting but remain convinced that the value added of these tools lies in connecting the Ugandan communities in Gulu and Kampala to each other at this stage.

Rory wrote:

I like the idea of using the internet to disseminate information of value but distributing marketable texts in hard copy. Are there other hybrid ideas for creating connectivity that goes both ways to remote areas?

A dream I have had for a long time is to produce a printable catalogue of pre-surfed web-addresses that are relevant to an African audience. I'd love to see something like that produced quarterly with a development-related theme for each issue, practical how to articles, and online success stories, and made available for free. It could save people so much online time to be able to select where they want to go before they start a surfing session.

Christina, there are models for this kind of publication. Back in the early days of the internet there were hard copy web directories.

While I was in Uganda, I did not try to do any searches. Are they really slow? Are some search engines faster than others perhaps based on local connectivity issues? (I know that a couple of us had real connection issues with gmail and I noticed that you use a different email provider but I am not sure if that is a function of the connection or maybe the resources used.

Some of the search engines are set up on the hierarchical manner that you describe (for example yahoo). That model doesn't mesh with how my brain works so I tend to do searches on the net.

Certainly it would be easy enough to accumulate the websites with any browser bookmarking system and merge from a couple of different sources, organize and publish to the net.

Ronald its quite an interesting discussion

AMON MWANGI said:

Ronald its quite an interesting discussion

It certainly is!

Ronald

This is a great thread and i have found it finally will be able to participate in it.

Keep up the good work

Somehow I neglected to link to BROSDI's Web site. There's lots really great about their model. But I particularly wanted Ronald to be able to check out their HIV peer-to-peer program. Also their use of SMS for agricultural information is a super idea.

Jan Chipchase's work for Nokia is alway interesting, even if I get bogged down in some of his really intellectual stuff. The mobile phone is so critical to all efforts to use ICTs to make something good. His presentation on Village Phone, Uganda is worth checking out and clicking on some of the links there and also searching his site.

The Moulinwiki project has created a fully-interactive French version of Wikipedia and other languages are in the works.

Everyone I talk to seems to blanch when I talk about making wikis. It funny to me because I'm so not a computer geek. But wikis seem so great. It's not just creating useful information within a particular wiki that seems so useful, but putting information in wikis seems a way to aggregate information across communities and between wikis. Recently PbWiki introduced a point and click editor which really removes a barrier to learning how to collect information there.

Beth Kanter is so smart I can barely stand it, but I'm always disarmed by her great sense of adventure and playfulness. Somehow she's able to make things seem as simple as they are. Her pieces on wikitation and wiki's in general show how the creation of directories like Christina envisions are really not hard. The best way to search her blog seems to be to use her own categories.

Rollyo is a service that allows you to make a customized search engine. It's probably a bit far afield from this topic, but it does offer one useful way to make search more productive for certain purposes.

I did not see it mentioned here, but http://www.greenstar.org is doing some interesting work of putting solar powered Internet/community centers in remote areas. Would that be a solution in more areas of the world?

They are also tring to help start local economies, by selling art produced in these communities via the Internet. I'm not sure what success they have had, but it seems to offer remote communities a market.

John Powers said:

Somehow I neglected to link to BROSDI's Web site. There's lots really great about their model. But I particularly wanted Ronald to be able to check out their HIV peer-to-peer program. Also their use of SMS for agricultural information is a super idea.

I didn't find "sms" on the homepage. Could you provide a link to the "super idea" (or just copy/paste if I overlooked it on the homepage)?

I have argued for more use of mobile phones in "remote" areas for several years now. Below is another interesting link provided by Haney Armstrong.

nmw said in "Exploiting the Internet for Africa's Benefit" on Sun, 28 May 2006 06:27:18 PDT:

Just want to note that someone mentioned much the same idea as I described below in a recent conference session titled What is web 2.0, saying (paraphrased by Haney Armstrong):

In places in Africa, they aren’t going to build out broadband networks, but rather rely on cell phones for more and more and that will be their internet connection.

nmw said:

I have before suggested the "intermediaries" could charge for providing information services. Let me follow up on this a little bit.

Are there wireless telephone providers in Africa? Do they provide text messaging services? If every village had 1 representative who could text a message to a central location which has internet access, then a message could be sent, researched, and the answer returned within minutes.

Some examples of standard information that might be "pushed" in a standard, newsletter format:

• market prices
• public transportation news
• health news
• "classified ads"

Just some general ideas.

If anyone has questions, just PM (I usually print them out, stick 'em on top of peanut butter sandwiches, and eat them -- yumm! ;D)