Jane Jacobs has an image that is quite powerful... in the phrase cataclysmic capital

I think the imagery of rivers in torrent grounds that phrase.

Targetted currencies, on the other hand, help retain the energy of these flows upstream...

I'm learning your language

here's a short blog entry I wrote about the film, that also has instructions on how to put yourself on a google map and watch the flow of the people who have seen the movie...

Cool. Where is Thomas? I loved the quote he put on the blog.

“You can count the seeds in an apple, but you can’t count the apples in the seed.”

I love(d) that quote. :)

This isn't a meta discussion, is it? It's an actual discussion of the film, correct?

Here's a blog post I wrote after seeing the film and reading a bit more: http://tedernst.com/wp/?p=422

It can be both. I think in bringing the discussion to currencies and targetted currencies for example, we go beyond the film, into places the film could only hint at. Similarly for what it means for the life of the mind and human potential. These are necessarily open questions.

Okay, we just have different ideas of what "meta" means. I'm happy talking about the film itself and it's applications to all domains, and how currencies can be part of the process of turning upstream. And while I wouldn't call any of that "meta", you won't hear it from me again. :-)

Well, I am open to any meta discussion on the film, however you interpret the term. I'm not restrictive on the range of related matter. I take it this talk here is meta on the discussion of the film. (Meta... beside, after, beyond)

Side note... I think the film itself is a meta discussion :)

This discussion about the word "meta" is certainly a meta discussion, in my book.

As for the film itself as a meta discussion, please say more about that!

I saw the film again tonight. I'd like to discuss the lower level and the higher level views of flows, specifically related to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. I think I gained a new understanding this time around about the upward spiral and human evolution.

Ok, I'm ready to hear and discuss,and learn.

What about the lower level flows and the higher level flows would you like to discuss Ted?

Okay, I'm back after an amazing weekend for Michael Herman and Jill Perkins' wedding. Great people!

Alright, so the lower level is the cars and the higher level is the traffic, yes? The lower level is the water flowing into the bottle and the higher level is the amount of water in the bottle, yes? So this means the lower level is the flow of energy that the 2nd law is working on and the higher level is the amount of energy that we have to work with in this new moment.

So that's the moment when I start to feel a little lost trying to explain. I have a very strong emotion about all of this and what the upwards spiral is in the human domain, and yet my concepts break down.

So back to the physical world. On the bedrock slope, the water brings all the smaller rock particles to the bottom where tehy finally settle out and plants begin to grow. The lower level is the flow of rocks down the slope and the upper level is the amout of soil availble for plants, I think. The plant growth does two things or maybe three. It directly contributes to soil creating when it dies and decays. It slows down water thus allowing sediment to fall out higher up the slope (creating more soil) and it slowed down the rock falls themselves, also creating more soil higher up the slope. So the lower level flow is slowing down and the upper level is moving up (the traffic is backing up, while the cars are not backing up).

So with human beings and our work in the world, what does it mean for the traffic to back up? For the soil to reach higher up the slope?

I am getting old and will die, but the knowledge and energy I put into the world will accumulate with that of others to create something larger than one life and one person, something that evolves as each of us contribute to it? Is that an example?

And through this our ways of intereacting become more complex and more highly evolved?

The tempo of our lives and the tempo with which we receive flows are central to this discussion.

I've cited Georges Bataille's work on General Economy, The Accursed Share in some related discussions.

His work was a welcome encounter for me... it gave me more confidence ini speaking about the abundance of life/energy as opposed to the more frequent frame of scarcity.

We can consider a tension between "increasing efficiency" and a need to "release excesses of energy".

Often enough, we find ourselves driven to increase efficiency... that's the rule of the day.

Production of cultural works offers a great example in the upward spiral ... this production is an intensive production that finds new ways of expending energy. It is a means of humanizing ourselves.

In contrast, as we consume more and more of mass media - drinking from the firehose - it is difficult to enter into a reflective relation with those cultural products... at least not while we are drinking from the firehose/stream.

Could you say that more simply Michael. I think I am following you, but I want to be sure.

To me, using the economy as the example, the lower level flow is the "through-put" that we see hyped in the market economy. (See this comment). The market economy has become very good at identifying ways to increase productivity as measured by the difference between cost of production and sale price - which is profitability of the "through-put". Maximizing through-put (large flows of money to a limited number of organizations) is like the erosive flow of water Krafel talks about.

From the point of view of a family or a community, it makes more sense to identify the upper level flows - the cycles of production and consumption and what part of that flow can be retained in the family or community with each cycle. That is, we would do better by improving the efficiency of the round-put as measured by that which we can retain in the system. Many small projects to retain flows in families and communities is like Krafel and his trowel redirecting the water at the top of the drainage.

Round-put? Can you say more about retaining flows in a family or community? With water, Krafel and his trowl slow down the flow so that it soaks in and thus sustains more life. Could you say more about how this relates to family and community? What flow is slowed down and what does "soaking in" mean in this domain?

I take it we are talking about a wide variety of flows...

In my read: The "soaking in" allows for more complex (and sustained) interactions.

Is this what you're referring to elsewhere by "mindfulness"? Is that what allows the soaking in?

Ted Chicago Ernst said:

Round-put?

Just to distinquish full cycle analysis from the analysis of only the flows through the system.

Can you say more about retaining flows in a family or community?

As David Frayne says, the key to getting out of poverty is to spend less than you make. Further, what you do with the difference is important. A family (or community) of wage earners (say a mill town or a steel town) is participating in a through-put. A small amount of which will cycle through the family or town so long as the flow continues. Unless some portion of that is "invested" in more local production for local consumption, the family will be in trouble (or the town will die) when the flow is cut off, such as when production is moved to a developing country.

With water, Krafel and his trowl slow down the flow so that it soaks in and thus sustains more life. Could you say more about how this relates to family and community?

Money invested in 1) lowering the cost of living, 2) the means of production for internal consumption, or 3) local production for local consumption, creates local cyclical flows that shelter the family and/or community from changes in the lower level flows.

What flow is slowed down and what does "soaking in" mean in this domain?

I visualize a upper level flow in the way an ecosystem operates. diversity -> complex interactions -> dynamic stability -> increased productivity -> increased diversity. That is what happens when the first pioneer plants occupy the edges of the rock flow, building soil and creating opportunities for other species to participate in the cycle. The increase in diversity can be reversed through fire, flood, overgrazing etc.

It is the same in an economy. Local stability depends on local diversity and if we are capturing and investing a portion of the through-put into local round-put, we can increase both with each cycle of production and consumption. If not, diversity/stability will be lost with the next flood or drought.

Ted Chicago Ernst said:

Is this what you're referring to elsewhere by "mindfulness"? Is that what allows the soaking in?

Mindfullness serves as an example and a strategy. What ABard OfGaia achieved was insight gained by careful observation and attentiveness. I think this has its analogue in processes of deliberation and consensus building. Is it more efficient to have a 'Decidor' such as El Presidente? That's an extreme example, but I think we recognize the danger in that and the value of the foundation that can be built on the 'slower' processes. Do we have the patience? Do we feel pressure to exchange faster - whether normative or structural?

OK...I got the DVD yesterday from Arthur and I just finished watching it.

It really has me thinking but I think I need time to let things soak in. An apt analogy I think :-)

Some of you may know that Arthur and I are working with a local group called REDI to develop local targeted currencies. One of the vechicles we intend to use to create these local cyclical flows is partially describe in the Balle Discussion.

Anyone interested in working on a similar project in your area (or can contact some such person in your area) is welcome to collaborate on this project.