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Some thoughts about reputation, and why we care...
Posted to: Targeted Currencies by Arthur Brock (CCAL30) (2066), Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:22:58 PDT
Feedback score: 0
Tags: community currencies flow gift-economy resource-management
Comments: 69 by 11 members
Viewed: 613 times by 32 members
You could say that the future of humanity relies on our learning to harmoniously and efficiently share the finite resources of this planet. Lessons from communism teach us this won't be achieved through central control, and inequities inherent in capitalism demonstrate the limitations of the profit-driven marketplace's ability to achieve this goal. We stand at a precipice separating us from a new era. One that can be bridged by re-tooling the information technology developed for the global marketplace to empower and restore local communities.
There is wisdom in community. In strong communities, people take care of each other; they know what resources are needed where, and who can spare them. People have an interest in taking care of others because it is part of how they are taken care of. Failure to share resources and responsibilities impacts one's reputation in the community. Social standing in the community rather than a bank balance is the key to participating in the flow of communal wealth.
Modern mobility and communication technologies have yielded communities that are more fragmented and loosely woven, but the real deterioration of our communities comes from systematically replacing resource sharing with commercial transaction. That we no longer walk across the street to borrow a cup of flour from our neighbor, but drive 2 miles to the grocery store while in the middle of dinner preparations, is a clear indicator the of the breakdown of community. The opportunity for a relationship and trust-building interaction has been replaced by a tit-for-tat transaction which ensures neither. Activities which were once a part of community interaction now must be mediated by money which leads directly to our modern challenges in providing simple social services such as child care and elder care.
Community sharing strengthens relationships, builds trust and gives shape to and is shaped by reputation. We can borrow from the large-scale tools of the marketplace and translate their application to strengthen community and the effective sharing of resources. The tools we are building empower individual communities to overcome the informational barriers of their more loosely-woven nature, and enable them to restore the flow of sharing, reputation, trust, status, resources and care. The toolset is not monolithic, rather it consists of many independent but interoperable components that are each highly configurable, thus each community’s system will reflect the kinds of participation, information, sharing and resources that it values.
Comments page 1
By Arthur Brock (CCAL30) (2066), Thu, 20 Jul 2006 01:41:55 PDT
Tags: reputation-currencies
Comment feedback score: 0
Many communities in "developing" nations still have quite functional gift economies of sharing. It seems to me that many of those (who have not become fragmented via modern markets, mobility and communication technologies) don't need this kind of additional infrastructure because their word-of-mouth reputation systems are intact.
However, there are certainly communities in "developed" countries who are on the other side of the digital divide that could benefit from these kinds of tools. However, reputation systems don't always have to be high-tech. Think about the colors of belts in a karate class.
What kind of community are you thinking about? What kind of new connections are you trying to make? What sort of interactions are you supporting? How are you seeking to strengthen relationships? What kind of reputation might be relevant to your community members about each other to accomplish these things?
topBy Jeff Mowatt (CCAL30) (877), Thu, 20 Jul 2006 03:42:17 PDT
Edited: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 04:42:15 PDT
Tags: community currencies targeted-currencies
Comment feedback score: 0
OK then. This covers about 10 years effort but starts in the same area you describe in the comparison of communist and capitalist ideologies, with a paper which pointed out that as good an engine capitalism is for economic development, the trickle down approach fails to touch those at the bottom who could be regarded as disposable. Instead it proposed targetted economic development at a community level.
http://www.p-ced.com/index2.asp
The choice of Tomsk/Seversk as the pilot was significant, being both a centre for nuclear research and a "target" for Cold War escalation possibilities. The Defence Enterprise fund, a traditional trickle-down approach had floundered, this was the opportunity to try something different.
The core of this project was to be a microfinance scheme , a reputation based system targetting low income households, particularly single mothers.
USAID came up with the funds, £6m to start and Finca took on the banking, as prescribed, with collateral based on reputation only.
http://www.mixmarket.org/en/demand/demand.print.profile.asp?ett=1523
Job done, before I came along and joined in. A resounding success, with 10,000 families made self-sustaining, but also something of a political embarrasment for both sides.
I come into this as we move into Ukraine at the point that an irresistable object is met in the form of government. One man demands 10 percent and a $40m project targetting Crimea's Tatar population is suspended.
We then join up with the cause of the citizen activists promoting the Orange Revolution and proposing the elimination of corruption. This pans out over the next 3 years to a national level microeconomic strategy plan, this time incorporating new elements. We'll target a primary social object, scale up the reputation based microfinance to national level and include a replicable revenue generating community broadband scheme to provide a financial return on investment in addition to the social one, recognising, as in the original paper that information infrastructure is fundamental to enterprise development.
Ukraine has many orphans and street children, some in horrific circumstances and largely due to the fact that their families can't support them, 90% in fact are orphans in an economic sense rather than absence of parents.
Family itself then, is the relationship we seek to strengthen.
As the plan unfolds in public, we begin to see response from their goverment, who start to take on board the idea of gro up care homes. Their President appeals for help in creating them, but we know this is no small task, we calculate that $1.5bn will be needed to do the job properly.
We know we're working in an environment where corruption is endemic, but then we've also proven it can be overcome and if necessary blocked completely.
Only in recent months have we discovered that the situation of some of these children is far worse than could have been imagined. We are passed the Death Camp story by a US base nonprofit. Their need becomes immediate and urgent.
Regrettably, we now face perhaps the greatest obstacle of all in only the last few days as the country does a political turnaround passing back control to the Soviet era restorationists whose policies caused this social inequity in the first place.
A point we make, in this most recent public announcement:
By Lars Hasselblad Torres (3540), Thu, 20 Jul 2006 05:45:27 PDT
Tags: reputation
Comment feedback score: 3 (* * *)
Im increasingly interested in how attention within communities shifts. This is actually evidenced quite well even in traditional politics, where we talk about regimes etc.
But I think my point is tied to local communities as well as online communities, and even more so networks. Both in terms of issues and individuals.
What are the implications for the way attention moves throughout, across a social system and any one individual's reputation within that system, especially as it grows?
In a small rural village such as we have many of in Vermont, the "replenishment" of members happens quite slowly, and its visible. In larger towns and cities replenishment happens more quickly and with less attention. In online networks the rate must be dazzling, at least in the intake of new members.
So what I am wondering is, in the kinds of communities you seem to be describing Arthur (ie "healthy" ones where people "take care" of one another) how does reputation grow, and move about? I'm interested in the notion that, in (for lack of a better word) reciprocal communities, someone can enter with or without a reputation that is mutable.
Anyway, I think you will be interested in an experiment a friend of mine is running up in Burlington: he has taken what was a local (ie neighborhood-based) email list he started to the next level (web portal) and is experimenting with where it can go. Many, many of its members share services, resources, attention etc. The website is very "real," gets lots of use, and serves its "community" of the Five Sisters neighborhoods incredibly well. Michael's website is: http://www.frontporchforum.org/.
Two assumptions (?) that I'd like to know if I'm hearing correctly are the idea that a) "traditional" communities somehow perform "better" along a set of social dimensions and b) that cash transactions are somehow "bad." Am I hearing these accurately?
I tend to think there is a proliferation of new activities to strengthen and update reciprocity bonds in towns across the US -- it would be lovely to have a book that catalogues these innovations at the grassroots.
By Jeff Mowatt (CCAL30) (877), Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:58:09 PDT
Edited: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:59:21 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
On this topic in a more affluent environment, a few months ago , a community network to which I belonged until moving home recently featured in a national newspaper article on the subject.
http://money.independent.co.uk/property/homes/article485354.ece
The journalist, I felt, failed to do it full justice as it had also spawned more relevant things, such as a subset who came together to form a community currency initiative. It has also raised awareness of several local charitable causes.
Moving away, though I still co-moderate this forum at a distance of 150 miles, mainly to filter out private messages such as "Did you read what that bitch wrote about me?" being broadcast mistakenly and the ubiquitous Viagra spam mail.
What I discover attemting to replicate this in my new environment, is that rural dwellers are less interested, generally convinced that they have adequate real-person community networks, though in reality I find this represented by a large number of non-communicating special interest groups. It's been interesting to observe recently, when suddenly faced with a coomon threat, the closure of a local hospital, how unaccustomed this community is to discussion. We tend to have a rant board rather than a discussion forum.
By Christophe Hinton (203), Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:13:23 PDT
Comment feedback score: 5 (* * * * *)
In 1991, I spent a good part of that year in Iraq. Our commanders pretty much burnt it into us, that we were guests of the Iraqi People, and that we were to govern ourselves accordingly. I watched, and learned.
In Kurdish cities, (though, I believe this to be true for all non-democratic Islamic states) the local system of government is clan-based. Each section of town has a "Sheikh", or "Head-Man". He is a man of upstanding reputation, and by blood, or by marriage, related to the vast majority of people living in his community.
When a baby is born, the sheikh gifts a "nest egg" to the parents. If a child shows academic promise, brought by the parents to the Sheikh's attention, and "wasta" (influence) is used to secure entrance. Perhaps, even a scholarship is provided. The Sheikh finds jobs, brokers marriages and, pays for weddings, finances business ventures, maintains local infrastructure, etc, etc. All of this is funded not by taxes, but by a tribute paid to him by every working adult male in his area who benefits from his influence. He is, of course, not working alone, but assisted in his duties by other Heads-of-Household. -Your grandfather might be the Sheikh's first-cousin, or some-such.
I hardly suggest that I, as an American, find myself suited to live under such a system of government. I merely point to it as a long functioning system that is reputation-based, and family-based. It predates the Pharaohs by thousands of years, and serves its people to this day.
We should take a look at it.
By nmw (1876), Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:57:23 PDT
Edited: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:57:56 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
Christophe Hinton said:
It predates the Pharaohs by thousands of years, and serves its people to this day.
Wow. I just recently learned (since my son was learning about Egyptian history in school) that the Pharaohs ruled Egypt for several thousand years. That really blew me away. And now that you say this system predates the Pharaohs by several thousand years -- I think I'm about to fall off my chair!
By Christophe Hinton (203), Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:12:11 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
Sure, Norbert. I'll shoot it to you over the personal net Brother.
By David Braden (CCAL30) (1865), Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:25:43 PDT
Tags: abundance community reputation
Comment feedback score: 2 (* *)
According to Martin Rizzi, the Aztecs in Mexico still maintain community infrastructure through a labor obligation called Quataquil (sp?). I imagine that the motivation to contribute that labor comes from the need to maintain ones reputation in the community. I started working on that thought in connection with systems to produce abundance.
By David Braden (CCAL30) (1865), Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:41:42 PDT
Tags: repuation-ratings
Comment feedback score: 7 (* * * * * * *)
I'm not sure this is the best place to put this comment but I want to write it down while I'm thinking about it.
If we were to have a community discussion board aroung the question "What can We do to make Our community a better place to live", and there was participation from a significant segment of the community with varing levels of sincerety, we would need a way to filter comments down to those that most contribute to an understanding of the issue and the alternative actions proposed to be taken.
What if we had a program that required each reader to rate comments with a subjective scale containing such conclusory evaluations as:
1 - Completely off base
2 - unhelpful
3 - strictly partisan
4 - redundant
5 - helpful
6 - insightful
7 - constructive
8 - brilliant
Then when you started to read a thread you could set your filter to display only those comments with an average rating of at least 5 or unrated.
You could also assign a color to each of those ratings so that a rating of 1 or 2 would fade the comment toward black whereas a 3 or 4 would fade to red, a 5 or 6 would fade to blue and a 7 or 8 would become whiter (or some such). Then, as you skim down the comments, you could judge for yourself what colors you are interested in reading. The system would have to know whether you read a comment or skipped over it, perhaps requiring that you click on the author's name to read the text and then not let you go to the next comment without rating the one you just read.
Each contributor would then receive a reputation rating based on the cummulative rating of their comments - tending to limit comments to those that the author thinks the reading participants will find at least helpful.
By Arthur Brock (CCAL30) (2066), Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:03:12 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
Hi David,
The kind of system you're talking about (although not necessarily this identical implementation) is exactly what we're attempting to enable with our "currency" tools.
These tools include reputation and feedback systems and can be applied to sorting and filtering information. This helps communities tap into their collective wisdom to bring certain kinds of issues to the forefront and send others to the background.
There are layers of dynamics in the kind of thing that you're proposing. For example, what about somebody who just goes down the list and always gives everything the highest possible rating? Normalizing people's ratings based on their actual behavior might be necessary.
In any case, having the ability to adapt and evolve the feedback mechanisms to support the community discourse in being positive and productive are critical.
By David Braden (CCAL30) (1865), Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:43:23 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
The other problems I was thinking about was the person who feels the need to vent - using profanity etc. - and the person who has a grudge and posts false scandalous accusations about another person.
In those instances would we need a person or group of persons with the authority to 1) make a comment unreadable for those under 18 - and mark it as profane and irrelevant so the rest of us can avoid it and/or 2) prevent that person from additional postings?
By Christophe Hinton (203), Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:15:59 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
I FEEL your pain!
Now, The Aztecs... Is that obligation backed up by some government mandate, or concession of autonomy to the tribe which in effect makes it "law"? Or, is this a custom that has been handed down through generations, from pre-Colombian times?
David Braden said:
The other problems I was thinking about was the person who feels the need to vent - using profanity etc. - and the person who has a grudge and posts false scandalous accusations about another person.
In those instances would we need a person or group of persons with the authority to 1) make a comment unreadable for those under 18 - and mark it as profane and irrelevant so the rest of us can avoid it and/or 2) prevent that person from additional postings?
By David Braden (CCAL30) (1865), Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:33:29 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
My understanding regarding the Aztecs is that it is pre-columbian. Prior to the invention of money I believe the labor tax was a common phenomenon. I have heard of versions of it for building rope bridges in Peru and maintaining irrigation ditches in New Mexico.
By Martín Rizzi * Mexico (3740), Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:20:46 PDT
Comment feedback score: 2 (* *)
i lived in the barrio of san pedro in tepoztlan morelos in the late 1960s early 1970s when there was no electricity and most days people would not have occassion to use money; a peso was a bill in those days and a large adobe brick was worth a peso and a bowl of soup in the market was a half a peso - in those days for the Mexican countrypeople, money was a special substance - not commonplace as it has become.
When I lived there the older people spoke Nahuatl as a first language and the use of Nahautl was common - (my early notebooks are full of vocabulary and poems of Nezhuacoyotl). Nahuatl is the language the Aztecs spoke and employed ritually.
The older people then, such as Don Felipe Nava, had been young in the time of the Mexican Revolution. Tepoztlan is suituated in the pass where General Felipe Angeles' cannons came down after the agrarian revolutionary Emiliano Zapata. I was always interestd in those stories. In those days still, old campesino men would sing corridos accompanied by a very simple strummed guitar. Corridos were like newspapers, with endless verses going on for hours detailing the exploits of Revolutionary heroes such as Zapata and Genovevo de la O.
Once, while making corn tortillas, mama Jula Cuevas commented to me that she had once served soup to Zapata himself in a cave where the village was hiding from the federales. I remember being astounded that she made that statement and i wanted to be sure i understood her and i urgently wanted to know:
"¿Como era?" this is what i then asked her.
Her answer:
"Era de conejo con zanahoria" this is what mama julia said.
knocked me out! LOL! and i have remembered this moment ever since
If you dont know Spanish
you wont get this joke
sorry i am not going to explain it to you
By Martín Rizzi * Mexico (3740), Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:43:46 PDT
Edited: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:49:50 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
sorry, i guess this is an off topic response to the foregoing dialog.....
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/vocabulario.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/sitting%20in%20Lencha%27s%20kitchen.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Nonantzin%20-%20ELIZABET%20LAMINA.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/chiname%20carrizo%20otate.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Cani%20Temuica.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/xelhuasnanacatl.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/TEPOZTLAN.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Alfonso%27s%20Wake.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/agosto%2024.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Desire%20Creates%20Time.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/El%20Coronel%20y%20Daniel.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/God%20Grant%20Me%20Truth.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/PROVERBS%20OF%20HELL.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Tia%20Takes%20Off.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Two%20Virgins.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Thunder%20and%20Wind.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/The%20Alphabet%20in%20English.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Subjunctive%20Mode.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/invocation.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Fiesta%20de%20San%20Jose.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/How%20do%20angels%20fly.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/JACOBO%20GUITAR%20PLAYER.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/AsA%20SA%20SASA%20sa%20.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Abstract%20Two%20Leafs.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/A%20Miracle.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/OPPOSITION%20IS%20TRUE%20FRIENDSHIP.jpg
http://www.artcamp.com.mx/awards/images/jorgemartin/1973/Revolution%20Abundance.jpg
** Pages from Tepoztlan Notebook - early 1970s ****
By Debbie Gleason (CCAL30) (2543), Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:09:36 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
"Era de conejo con zanahoria" this is what mama julia said.
Rabbit with carrots? Double entendre or just that cooking the rabbit with the very food that he regularly ate?
By Debbie Gleason (CCAL30) (2543), Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:33:13 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
Oh, well.
By Martín Rizzi * Mexico (3740), Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:37:17 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
- it has to do with the verb form
By Debbie Gleason (CCAL30) (2543), Wed, 23 Aug 2006 06:05:14 PDT
Edited: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 06:06:05 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
Has to do with the verb form. Doesn't it always?
I would guess that something very unpleasant is happening to the rabbit. I know that early modern English there's the word, coney, which is slang for a woman. Perhaps Spanish has similar slang? No doubt something being done to a woman, and probably without her consent. And that would bring us back to reputation.
By Martín Rizzi * Mexico (3740), Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:05:55 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
- nope; not even close
By Debbie Gleason (CCAL30) (2543), Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:15:52 PDT
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Oh, well. Out of guesses.
By Christophe Hinton (203), Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:51:16 PDT
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Was thier local government patriarchal, or feudal, or democratic?
David Braden said:
My understanding regarding the Aztecs is that it is pre-columbian. Prior to the invention of money I believe the labor tax was a common phenomenon. I have heard of versions of it for building rope bridges in Peru and maintaining irrigation ditches in New Mexico.
By CM M~a~q~o~w~a~n (2394), Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:28:28 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
Good one, Martin!
/won't spoil it
//personalmente, ligo menos que un submarino abajo del grifo. Que Lastima!
///that how you know I know ;-)
////slashies mas alla!
By Jeff Mowatt (CCAL30) (877), Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:36:49 PDT
Comment feedback score: 0
Arthur, I agree or I think I do. But what kind of communities are we talking about? For instance I'm rather focussed on communities which have no technology infrastructure and how we put one in place.