Here's an article that shows the gravity of the situation WRT medical care -- not only in th US, but also in other "developed" countries.

Dutch relieved but ruffled by kidney hoax

thank you norbert,

i will not be able to post anything else, until i am feeling a little better. i would like to keep this discussion more focused on american health issues. the dutch article is relavent, however i can not donotate an organ to someone in a foreign country. and i do wish the thread to become a discussion about organ donation.

one of my concerns is how does someone in the u.s get a doctor to treat them if they don't have medical coverage? how do they get life saving medications if they can't pay?

see this article on a recent preventable death of a child due to the simple fact that the medicaid insured party could not locate a provider. sounds crazy? not really...it is americas hidden shame.

providers can turn patients away for ANY reason, people in the u.s are dying.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp -dyn/content/article/2007/05/02/ AR2007050202539.html

you said you had access to a giant search system, perhaps you can locate the statistics on how many people dye each year in the u.s due to "curable" diseases. probably very hard to find - it would be an admission of guilt.

thanks,

dafna

oops,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp -dyn/content/article/2007/05/02/ AR2007050202539.html

darn,

please fix this link :(

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp -dyn/content/article/2007/05/02/ AR2007050202539.html

hmm -- don't know why the link didn't work for you -- looks quite similar (oh, wait perhaps you had copied the link text [including the space]? it's best to do a right mouse click and then select "copy link", not just "copy").

Dafna,

let me explain a little about my view of the Internet (you may have a different view).

My view is that the internet is great for finding/retrieving focused (very specific/particular) kinds of information. It also works for very general things, but it's real strength lies in the ability to use computers to find what you need, rather than "turning on a magazine" (like "People" or "National Enquirer").

An issue as broad as "all of health care" -- you're never going to get anywhere with that. The NIH is bigger than you are, and so is the AMA, dozens of pharmaceuticals, insurance companies, etc. You should know that Google does not even offer you "all of the internet" -- it will only return a maximum of 1000 results (and I am quite sure that getting onto the top 1000 for an issue as broad as "health care" is not something you should even try).

You need to get very focused on the exact issue you want to "solve". Unless you do that, your issue will indeed be "dead in the water" (sorry about that -- now we're even ;)

:) nmw

Lars and Norbert, YOU guys are really special. Kudos! I'm pretty useless in these areas, but youse guys really stepped up. Thankx.

Good luck Dafna. Keep in touch!

norbert,

i am really asking the community to help "solve". i know what i would like to see addressed. i will need help defining it. perhaps i can PM you some ideas.

for instance, (isuue #1)- i can not set up a new health care system. the link and the statistics i mentioned were only to point out that many americans are dying because of the health care crisis in the u.s.

the exact issue is (issue #1) - working outside of the existing health care system, how can we link americans, like myself, who have been refused treatment by doctors based on lack of insurance, to doctors and medications that they need?

too big to tackle? i have other issues concerning americans in need.

there is a link at the very end of the "poverty in america" thread that points to a web site called "giveget". it has the basic idea of distributing goods and services on an idividual basis from donors to recipients, but it has not been executed successfully.

i would like to PM you some ideas (definitions) that probably should be clarified before anyone will take this thread seriously.

there should be some agreement about "who is in need" in the u.s. the federal government has set the bar too low.

there should be some agreement as to the fact that philanthropy and charity must coexist.

one more thing... as far as leading the horse, rather than sticking a giant post on someone elses thread that talks about my own thread - i've seen people do it :( - can i "invite members" to this thread by posting a simple link? is that proper onet ettiquette?

i think of it as advertising. :)

thanks. i'm exhausted and have a school picnic to take my son to, so i will write again tomorrow.

dafna

Issue #1 certainly does seem huge... the first thing that pops into my mind is how apparently many people in England go to Pakistan for a holiday -- and have cosmetic surgery done while they're there. But I think it's definitely a difficult issue. Another idea I've had is along the lines of telemedicine (I think this is totally doable) -- financed by (problematic area): pharmaceutical companies (since no pencil pusher would even touch it). It's a kind-of "when hell freezes over" scenario, but it's well "within the box" for me. ;D

If you know something about politics, than you already know a hell of a lot more about it than me. I look forward to receiving a PM from you, especially if it fits on one computer screen (or less -- with lots of white space, too ;).

Then we can meet up here again (and figure out the "best way forward" from there).

Lars has much more "know how" than I do in many of the areas that may be crucial to solving the kinds of problems you're addressing. I'm just here for the hell of it (more of less ;)....

Dafna Orly Ronen wrote (via PM -- and Dafna said it was OK to share here):

so far i have managed to make minimum payments because of my disability income, but each month we go deeper into debt in order to pay for food, shelter, medical the necessities.

Perhaps you can recall one of the issues in the last election -- it had something to do with Canada and imports and being able to pay your bills. This is a sticky issue -- I wouldn't go there unless you know you've got alot of support behind you (otherwise I think it would be a waste of time; even with support -- it's a very difficult issue).

I think (but this is a very novice gut feeling) the first and foremost thing for you to do is to write about your daily life. Make it vivid. Or maybe you could do a 60 second video every day. I think if you bring this story to the wider audience, then that may help.

I think you could also offer advertising opportunities on such a page. People may very will be willing to pay some money to support you, if they can thereby say "we support this cause". Of course your cause would have to be "let's do X" or "let's do Y" or whatever.

I don't have many domains that have to do with "support" and/or help in a very general sense -- but I do have a few. However: rather than count them off here, I would like to hear what your ideas about what might "X" or "Y" be (in the sense of "let's do X" or "let's do Y").

Besides that, I would also like to know if there are people at omidyar.net who could imagine contributing to such projects, how much, what the outcome should be, etc.

Anyone else care to get a word in edgewise here?

hi dafna (and nmw) - the greatest opportunity to tackle these issues, which i am still not clear about, is to work at the state level. some perform better than others in terms of providing a base level of service for citizens in need.

if you happen to be in California I can hook you up with a statewide conversation on health care that governor schwarzenegger has signed on to. he has proven to be a state level republican ready to buck the party line - so i've got some hope the discussion - intended to create a reform agenda built around citizens priorities and what they are willing to trade off to get there - can actually have some legs. and be a model for national reform.

that said, its all long term. but the states are where its at on this issue until at least the 2008 elections are over. The sitting president who's name i cannot speak has rejected the outcomes of the Citizens Health Care Working Group (http://www.citizenshealthcare.go v).

wow! that's cool about Schwarzenegger! I guess the first lady is getting her say in ;)

anyway, Dafna, where are you located?, what city?

hello guys,

very tired, but this is addicting.

lars,

did i forget to thank you for the great title and setting up this thread? thank you!

please expect a PM with some ideas i need help sorting out(CC:brad and norbert).

absolutely, goes with out saying the government is ultimately responsible for these social service issues(which i would like to break down into smaller bites).

however, until that happens...it would not be the first time that individuals initiate a change that is long overdue.

onet is not counting on the u.s government to develop the wonderful projects omidyar network has set up.

lets do the same for americans, and if the template we develop works any country can use it.

distribute the things people need to those who need it.

this site has the idea but it is not executed well. (doesn't work) http://www.givegetnation.net/

not too many people giving or getting, and no screening of recipients and no reward for donors (besides feeling good) -it should be a non-profit tax deductible donation with lots of good PR attached.

brad,

i am sorry to say i live in ohio. yes, the state responsible for putting GWB in office :(

actually my real name is my onet name so you can find out just about all you wish about me. but with only 200 active users here, i'm not so worried about that. :)

did you receive my PM? would you please respond when you get the chance?

good night,

dafna

This is my third attempt to get this comment up! I am writing along and suddenly it all disappears....However, Lars, the state level is the worst level of assistance --and the best with corruption. Senators and governors are ready with the excuse: "I have no association/influence with this issue. You MUST go back to the local level for any help at all." These politicians are soooo experienced in having NO accountability or responsibility that they could teach graduate seminars on how to have NO reason to help anyone with any problem.

Now, I'm glad to hear about Arnold's almost-"promise" of assistance. But I heard that "talk" with the Browns: first daddy and then Jerry. And they REALLY meant well! That's why Jerry never could get beyond what he did do that helped people in crises: he was too honest! He was "blanked-out" by the many corrupt politicians who stood together and kept the status quo.

I lived for over 50 years in CA before moving East. The corruption in Maryland is the worst I've ever seen, from the locals/regionals to the state levels. They cover for each other, and I do not mean that as a joke. It's too serious a national matter to believe that even more chatting groups are going to solve ANYTHING.

If you want a more detailed discussion of my experience with our health care system and corruption, go back to the original thread of this discussion: something titled like "small business and self-employment." I have had enough of trying to get a comment "up" here. I'm stopping while I'm ahead!

hi all. i just wanted to get some ground clarified here. first, it seems we are talking generally about health care in the US, and more specifically how we as a country ensure that all citizens have access to good health care. this means developing a system that both rations "free" care and makes a profit off of non-essential care. everything in between is the magic.

marjorie, i don't think i suggested that health care is best delivered at the state level. my point is more that the innovation required to reform the health system can be most effectively agitated for at the state level. here is a great place to browse state-level health data - kaiser family foundation. as far as arnold goes, the good news is that bluecross/blueshield foundation of california is spear=heading the effort. which is to say, maybe the key interests are willing to go somewhere...

dear lars,

is my original concept too vague? your title was very accurate. i simply picked health care as a single good/service that needs to be distributed more equitably in the u.s.

distribute the things people need to those who need it (in america) have you read my PM?

i do not wish to tackle a topic as big as reforming the health care system. it must be reformed and i hope it will be reformed.

in the mean time, how do we connect doctors to patients.

is it too weird or utopian to think of an ebay system of distribution which connects donors of goods and services to those in need?

please look at http://www.givegetnation.net/ and see what i mean.

only a site like the above that actually functions.

in my PM i ask you your opinion about the connection between charity and philanthropy.

a highly organized voluntary distribution system of goods and services would fall under the category of charity.

i would like the site to be about.

oops,

i would like this site to be about "How many small fires can we put out in a week? A month? A year?"

i think we start with some agreement about "who is in need" in the u.s., the federal government has set the bar too low.

hows that for baby steps?

thanks,

dafna

Dafna, All, here's the snips from Dafna's mentioned PM,

i don't know if you have an opinion of what constitutes poverty in america. but we can not compare poverties. a person living on less than a dollar a day in an underdeveloped country is its own tragedy.

because my son and i are in the "social system", i can tell you that in order for any "solution" to work we must redefine who is impoverished in the u.s.

can you use your resources to suggest a definition: how much must the average american earn in order to secure, food, shelter, clothing, healthcare, and transportation?

there should be some agreement as to the fact that philanthropy and charity must coexist.

do you agree? if not i will try to clarify this idea.

i practice what i preach, what little we have we pass on to others. this web site emotionally exhausts me, but if some good will come, it will come to many, not just myself.

i guess the question really is, do the people on onet believe that as human beings we have a moral obligations to help those who can't help themselves? or only those people that are perceived as victims?

if any of this PM would be valuable as a post on my thread, you have permission to copy it there.

.

Dafna, I pretty much think that everyone here feels in some way

" that as human beings we have a moral obligations to help those who can't help themselves as well as those people that are perceived as victims? "

personally I have devoted most of my life trying to work poverty problems, and especially here is the US, I/we started the group "Poverty In America" specifically to address these problems and they are huge!

poverty encompasses every aspect of life, physical problems, mental problems, addictions, opportunity, economic environment, interest rates, etc. and imo, poverty is truly a relative thing, the poorest person in America has far more the many of the middle classes in undeveloped countries, yet they still can't provide for shelter, healthcare, etc within thier own locations,

how do we solve it?

well there is no one single fix all solution

but, if we embrace many, many different small solutions we will be able to raise the level of what is concidered impoverished, and anyone who says that they have a solution to poverty, is only looking at a small piece.

anyway, I truly hoped that ONet would be a place where we might be able to solve some of these things,

and ONet has made a little move in that dirrection, but far to slowly to ever make much of an impact to the whole picture. I think ON the corporation pretty much has realized that thier resources are limited and that they can't do it all, so they would rather focus on the third world areas where the buck goes the furthest, I realized that would be the case in the beginning but I was hoping that we could use this place ONet to attract outside funding to be dirrected to closer to home problems,

yet ONet management would rather this be a glorified Chat Room than an action place!! so I wouldn't look for much help or progress on a large scale level here,

how-ever on a more personal level, ONet does work pretty well, and you can likely find some solutions to your situation here, there is a world of links and networking possibilities here, and remember only the "squeeky wheel gets the grease" when the grease is limited, so I suggest knock on every door that you can find, and sooner or later one will open!

Brad,

evun if u cant cpell sowell, u still hava sertin wa wit werds...

;D nmw

bobby kennedy, when campaigning for president back in '68, used to say things about how much we were spending to fuel a war abroad when people at home were hungry. the same rings true today. almost 40 years later.

dafna, thanks for bringing me back to the larger issue - sorry to have gotten side-tracked on health care.

so mabye you are talking about something like http://www.freecycle.com in combination with somethings like http://www.adoptaclassroom.org/ - adopt a family?

nmw said:

Brad,

evun if u cant cpell sowell, u still hava sertin wa wit werds...

And . . . obviously, a way with nerds!

dear lars,

i won't be able to contribute much today, maybe tonight. looks like you are very in touch with what i am trying to say/do. thanks for the optimism.

i clicked on both links. in an earlier post i point out that there is no screening of recipients on "givegetnation" - adopt a class also does no screening and i am not sure why but i can't find anything free on freecyle.

but YES and THAT'S THE IDEA "a highly organized voluntary distribution system of goods and services that would fall under the category of charity." (i don't know how to use bold so i capped the letters)

with the goal - "to raise the level of what is considered impoverished" in the u.s

brad,

i am sorry for your disappointment with omidyar network. are you impoverished also? you have a great deal of true empathy for the situation in the u.s. believe me, being in the situation itself, i am angry, frustrated, frightened and saddened.

i believe omidyar network has no valid reason for choosing between the two poverties. they can and should support both.

i disagree that "pretty much everyone" on ONet community and O Network feels "that as human beings we have a moral obligations to help those who can't help themselves as well as those people that are perceived as victims?"

charity and philanthropy do not coexist in the minds of Onet community or O Network. thomas k. writes O Network is not in the business of charity.

the idea of giving something to someone else because you have too much and they don't have enough is the greatest stumbling block to this site.

using lars loose reference to katrina, (without diverting or inviting discussion about katrina) as a metaphor, katrina had two distinct PARTS

#1. a natural disaster - an uncontrollable situation with easily defined victims: those who died immediately.

#2. those who were allowed to die, given the depth of the malevolence of the mis-administration. and which people - the poorest. those completely dependent on the charitable aid of others.

i believe the focus of Onet community and Onetwork is mainly on underdeveloped counties because they are more easily perceived as victims (which they are).

i wish the focus of this site to be on the fact that given the chance americans would voluntarily redistribute their resources to americans in need if there were a way to do it easily and securely and even "profitably". the profit being in tax right offs and good PR.

people already give to the salvation army and their local food banks, but what liitle finds its way to those in need is not enough.

thank you for the "save yourself" suggestion concerning making contacts. i will gladly accept any help that is offered to me personnally. which doors (links) should i knock on first at ONet?

HOWEVER, writing these posts and hoping that i can somehow make some kind of a difference makes me feel less helpless in my own situation. hopeless and helpless are too very strong feelings connected to my poverty. anger also, but its less helpful.

yours truly,

dafna

dafna, to make something bold, "wrap" the words you'd like bold in two pairs of asterisks.

i also think you have hit a key point - somehow, that by experiencing engagement we can gain a sense of empowerment, which may in turn spark discovery, co-creation, new opportunities to build solutions. this is one of the lessons from the field of international development that might assist us here: that to effectively develop solutions for poverty and poverty-related issues, we must engage the groups directly affected by them in the conversation.

i also don't think there is any "focus" to this site, nor should we think about creating one - that would be futile. what we can do is carve out and organize around some key actions defined as we go along. if there seems to be a "focus" here, it is the default position created by the most active users.

finally, i gave the incorrect link for freecycle - it should be http://www.freecycle.org.

does http://www.globalgiving.com look more like the kind of "mechanism" you are looking for? it would be interesting to see America's top foundations and NPOs all go in on something like this, say to the tune of $10,000 year each to be redistributed in direct assistance grants to, as you say, "vetted" needs. I should think the only ones allowed to "vette" in the process would be those in poverty themselves - empowered as decision-makers, through learning, and as awardees...?

Lars,

this is interesting -- I've just has an "aha" moment about how I may be thinking totally differently about how the internet can/could/should work.

Now that you have suggested several other sites, I had this image of "Lars behind a department store counter". Dafna comes up and says "I would like a solution to poverty, please". Lars looks under the counter and pulls out solution 1 and solution 2 -- but neither of them are exactly what dafna would like, so she is hesitant. Lars recognizes this right away, and quickly pulls out solution 3 (lest dafna would walk away instead). Well, let's see if solution 3 "fits the bill".

In the meantime, I'm down in the basement, mixing up the medicine [1]... And someone just came by for a http://XXXL.ORG (boy, that was tough!) and then someone was looking for http://loans.net.in/usa and but it didn't fit their real http://need.in/life so nothing at all got done.

Oh, well....

have you ever "designed" something with someone you don't really know that much about nmw?

correction number 1 is that i don't have a counter to stand behind. its more like we're walking down a busy street and i bump into dafna. in helping her back up we happen to strike up a conversation about the building around us.

correction number 2 is that i don't have anything to sell. in looking around the buildings, i start asking questions about what she likes about the buildings around us. the things she likes serve as reference points as i imagine what a better city for daphna and others who experience the world as she does might look like.

anyway, hope that helps clarify. i have a handkerchief if you need to sneeze. would want to blow that yellow froth everywhere now would we?