But, Harry, it's 200 really committed people. Hell, the Spartans only had the Three Hundred at Thermopylae.

The real question is: How bad do you want it?

dear harry lime,

you are right on. check out the "new member experience" thread for some reasons for the lack of active participation.

my reasons are there, also a suggestion which i would love to see on its own thread, but don't know how to work this site.

"why not set up a distribution system, exactly like ebay (within ebay) which connects americans in need to donors who would like to bridge the gap between those needs, and our governments failures."

i understand the desire to revolutionize philanthropy, however the micro transactions that made ebay a huge success could also work to give americans in need some immediate relief. set up as a tax deductable non-profit donation system - corporations might even be inclined to donate. others may simply donate because its the right thing to do (they have more, someone else has not enough, they wish to share)

i really wish someone would publicly explain why onets focus has been so single mindedly on causes outside the u.s.

is it simply that there are not enough impoverished, homeless, hungry americans to make it a worthwhile cause?

is it simply the age old philosophical question that one senseless death is worth less than a million senseless deaths?

best wishes,

dafna

Keep em coming Harry!

It's really amazing to me that extremely intelligent & committed members here can't really take any criticism!

ONet Is really failing! in the sense of being any type of a power to impact world social & economic conditions!

sure, it works for the frequent 200, but does it really?

I mean given the time here, could we have not accomplished more with our investments?

think of how many fantastic members we have lost!

I think some well placed self-criticism might provide our best answers

from the other dirrection

dear david,

thanks for pointing out the value of constructive criticism, i was starting to feel like "the bad guy". i think the reason why so many people avoid constructive criticism is that they lack the skills to execute it properly.

its amazing to me how someone can post a simple question and the responses that people give are so off-topic or self centered. its a basic lack of communication issue.

i am slightly guilty by posting my suggestion for a new thread within my response. (would someone please PM me so it can be moved somewhere else?)

dear harry lime,

well done! this part of the ebay/omidyar social experiment (ONET)seems to have become a chat board for those who would already do good works anyway.

please correct me if i am wrong, i believe the original intent was a direct connection to omidyar funds and resources. a project would be conceived on ONET and endorsed and executed through omidyar.net

if you are looking for return on investment info, i believe these are the projects founded and funded by omidyar.net: http://www.omidyar.net/portfolio .php

at one time the dollar amounts devoted to each project were also disclosed.

i am no longer an "active member" because although all the above are worthy causes, in the interest of self preservation, i am most concerned with poverty in america.

my son and i have lived below the poverty level for the last five years, using mainly credit cards to survive and because i am disabled - at this point in time none of the projects founded/funded by omidyar would be of any "trickle" down help to us.

survival is such a daily struggle that i can not even use ebay to subsidize our income. at this point in time my son and i are completely dependant on the federal governments concept of social welfare - and unfortunately this system is failing americans.

good luck, but i think this chat room has been abandonded by the powers that be. small chance for a real response to your point - there is no one out there to answer but the other 196 actual users.

thanks,

dafna

Harry, the 200 "active" people you identify feels about right, and perfectly normal given the 90-9-1 ratio of phenomenon of participation inequality (see article by Jakob Nielsen).

So I'm not as concerned as you are about only 200 people being really committed/active on the site.

From the beginning (and many times over) I've stated that we use omidyar.net internally to support our work, and we extended the tool out to others externally to support them finding shared interests and making good things happen. I haven't stated "it's only for these kinds of activities" anywhere (and if I have, I'm sure someone will link to it).

omidyar.net is open for people to use it as they see fit, as long as they agree to the ground rules. Some folks are better at minding the ground rules than others, but it's ultimately up to the community itself to decide how it's going to work things out. This is really a self-managed community, and we are all able to see both the strengths and the weaknesses of taking this self-managed approach.

Yes, we (the omidyar.net dev team) have a hand in incrementally changing features here and there. We've even tried to enlist the self-managed community in helping distribute over $500,000 to organizations that the community has selected. But the content we see here in the comments and discussions and workspaces is that of the members of the community.

As you and others have no doubt noticed, there's plenty of room for people to talk about whatever they like, to share views that are both popular and not and to act in ways that on the one hand might be seen as not helpful, but on the other hand actually quite are.

One other thing: The link that Dafna made above (http://www.omidyar.net/portfolio.php) are the investments that have been made by staff using the workspaces as a way to negotiate the due diligence process. This was our internal use of the tool, not the community's work to make decisions. The community-directed investments that I spoke of two paragraphs above are here: http://www.omidyar.net/group/on/ ws/community_favorites/

(edited to fix typos)

dear thomas,

thank you for responding. however, have you read the jakob nielson article that you site? i assume you have.

am i mistaken in understanding that it clearly states that the 90-9-1 ratio of participation inequality is "inevitable" but the downsides are "significant" for several reasons.

one downside particularly stands out - the 90% who lurk and contribute only occasionally are more indicative of the general population. AND there is a reason we don’t participate.

the article also gives some great suggestions on improving participation. i am disappointed to hear that you are satisfied with such low participation ratios.

that being said omidyar.net is a great and giving site. it is my opinion that it has fulfilled its promise of transparency. i attempted to direct members to the link which lists what omidyar has founded and funded as you describe “through staff decisions and the use of workspaces”.

and thank you for providing the second link, it is great and it clearly defines omidyars investments in the community and the world.

may i suggest that you type the word “transparency” in the “start new search” section at the top of this page? i believe you might be alarmed at the number of confused and disgruntled members sighting “transparency” or a lack of involvement by omidyar as their reason for discontent.

perhaps the dev team could make an incremental but significant change by having the links you posted here clearly and easily accessible under the pseudonym of a tab at the top of each page like “portfolio”. It would go a long way to appease the uninformed.

on a personal note, i am posting and sending via (PM) an open question to the entire omidyar.net team. my apologies for repeating myself, but i have not yet gotten a response.

why is omidyar.net’s focus so clearly on “developing countries” and not also the huge and tragic issues plaguing the u.s? i believe in self-empowerment, but i also firmly believe in charity. good old fashioned “do for others what they cannot do for themselves” charity. after all, it is hard to teach a starving man how to fish. if you can, feed him until he learns to fish, however long the learning curve.

my previous suggestion – to break off a chunk of ebay and use the exact same distribution methods to connect americans with resources to americans in need is a sound suggestion. to quote jakob nielson “let users build their contributions by modifying existing templates rather than creating complete entities from scratch.”

yours truly,

dafna

Applause, applause.

Dafna Orly Ronen said:

dear david,

thanks for pointing out the value of constructive criticism, i was starting to feel like "the bad guy". i think the reason why so many people avoid constructive criticism is that they lack the skills to execute it properly.

its amazing to me how someone can post a simple question and the responses that people give are so off-topic or self centered. its a basic lack of communication issue.

i am slightly guilty by posting my suggestion for a new thread within my response. (would someone please PM me so it can be moved somewhere else?)

dear harry lime,

well done! this part of the ebay/omidyar social experiment (ONET)seems to have become a chat board for those who would already do good works anyway.

please correct me if i am wrong, i believe the original intent was a direct connection to omidyar funds and resources. a project would be conceived on ONET and endorsed and executed through omidyar.net

if you are looking for return on investment info, i believe these are the projects founded and funded by omidyar.net: http://www.omidyar.net/portfolio .php

at one time the dollar amounts devoted to each project were also disclosed.

i am no longer an "active member" because although all the above are worthy causes, in the interest of self preservation, i am most concerned with poverty in america.

my son and i have lived below the poverty level for the last five years, using mainly credit cards to survive and because i am disabled - at this point in time none of the projects founded/funded by omidyar would be of any "trickle" down help to us.

survival is such a daily struggle that i can not even use ebay to subsidize our income. at this point in time my son and i are completely dependant on the federal governments concept of social welfare - and unfortunately this system is failing americans.

good luck, but i think this chat room has been abandonded by the powers that be. small chance for a real response to your point - there is no one out there to answer but the other 196 actual users.

thanks,

dafna

Thomas Kriese said:

Harry, the 200 "active" people you identify feels about right, and perfectly normal given the 90-9-1 ratio of phenomenon of participation inequality (see article by Jakob Nielsen).

So I'm not as concerned as you are about only 200 people being really committed/active on the site.

From the beginning (and many times over) I've stated that we use omidyar.net internally to support our work, and we extended the tool out to others externally to support them finding shared interests and making good things happen. I haven't stated "it's only for these kinds of activities" anywhere (and if I have, I'm sure someone will link to it).

omidyar.net is open for people to use it as they see fit, as long as they agree to the ground rules. Some folks are better at minding the ground rules than others, but it's ultimately up to the community itself to decide how it's going to work things out. This is really a self-managed community, and we are all able to see both the strengths and the weaknesses of taking this self-managed approach.

Yes, we (the omidyar.net dev team) have a hand in incrementally changing features here and there. We've even tried to enlist the self-managed community in helping distribute over $500,000 to organizations that the community has selected. But the content we see here in the comments and discussions and workspaces is that of the members of the community.

As you and others have no doubt noticed, there's plenty of room for people to talk about whatever they like, to share views that are both popular and not and to act in ways that on the one hand might be seen as not helpful, but on the other hand actually quite are.

One other thing: The link that Dafna made above (http://www.omidyar.net/portfolio.php) are the investments that have been made by staff using the workspaces as a way to negotiate the due diligence process. This was our internal use of the tool, not the community's work to make decisions. The community-directed investments that I spoke of two paragraphs above are here: http://www.omidyar.net/group/on/ ws/community_favorites/

(edited to fix typos)

This info seems and feels contrary to the many prior discussions of participation on the o/net. Before claims were made and graphs supplied to justify.......whatever alleged higher participation. ;^)

>>>>> And self-respecting adults seen this patronizing action -- they didn't waste their time posting anything -- they just left :)

Tis a FACT!

Dafna Orly Ronen said:

and thank you for providing the second link, it is great and it clearly defines omidyars investments in the community and the world.

To clarify: the second link (http://www.omidyar.net/group/on/ ws/community_favorites/) lists the investments that were directed by members of the community (Omidyar Network provided the money, the omidyar.net community members decided where the money should go). Left to our own devices, Omidyar Network likely never would have found some of these recipients, and that's why empowering the community has been helpful to find places of need we wouldn't have seen before.

Dafna Orly Ronen further said:

why is omidyar.net’s focus so clearly on “developing countries” and not also the huge and tragic issues plaguing the u.s? i believe in self-empowerment, but i also firmly believe in charity. good old fashioned “do for others what they cannot do for themselves” charity. after all, it is hard to teach a starving man how to fish. if you can, feed him until he learns to fish, however long the learning curve.

If you're referring to the omidyar.net community's focus on "developing countries" you should instead post this as an open question to the community at large.

If you're referring to Omidyar Network's focus (seen at http://www.omidyar.net/portfolio .php), I don't see the emphasis on "developing countries" that you do. If this is the case, can you help me understand how you see it that way?

Harry Lime said:

And Thomas -- without exception -- against me -- you always sided with the point-bully (one or two people) -- 4 times now -- and each time it was the "community' -- that kept me alive.

And self-respecting adults seen this patronizing action -- they didn't waste their time posting anything -- they just left :)

Harry, you're right that each time you've done something that I've interpreted as disrespectful against someone else, I haven't been shy in encouraging folks to express their displeasure by giving negative feedback to you. But I've given the same encouragement to others, as well. It's not just you.

Yes, you've received positive feedback from 54 members of the community, but you've also received negative feedback from 24 members. There are people I respect in both those lists of feedback givers.

My own feelings about you are mixed: you've got some great ideas and keen insights and a great eye for photography, but sometimes your candor and ruthless drive for exposing inconsistencies seem anything but compassionate to me. However, your views and critiques and criticisms are valuable to me, no matter how harshly delivered, so I'm glad there are folks who are your champions here to help overcome the feedback of those who aren't appreciative of your approach.

Thomas Kriese said:

My own feelings about you are mixed: you've got some great ideas and keen insights and a great eye for photography, but sometimes your candor and ruthless drive for exposing inconsistencies seem anything but compassionate to me. However, your views and critiques and criticisms are valuable to me, no matter how harshly delivered, so I'm glad there are folks who are your champions here to help overcome the feedback of those who aren't appreciative of your approach.

Harry, he's got you there, Dawg. YOU do start kicking and punching before YOU even see the target clearly. IF I was your drill instructor, I'd bash your trigger-finger, so YOU could use it more gently. Nothing wrong with your aim, but you do shoot too quickly.

But Thomas, how Harry uses his speech is not cause for ANY community to censor him. For speech to remain free, it must be free for ALL of US, even unpopular speech. I think it is kinda saintly for you to try and protect Others from Harry's, sometimes too strong reactions, but it won't work.

For US to have peace, safety and security in OUR One Human Family, some folks are just gonna have to grow a backbone. Anonymous negatives inhibits growing a backbone and enables cowardice. Cowardice is what creates war, not courage.

RicHARD, how Harry uses his speech may not be cause for any community to censor him, but how Harry uses his speech has a profound effect on how the community functions with and around him.

Harry's decision to deliver his message in a way that he (hopefully) knows will alienate and drive away parts of the audience is his decision to make. The repercussion, though, are that the audience for his message diminishes down to just those who appreciate his style which is a small but very supportive group, as far as I can tell. So, does the community then whittle down to just those who can tolerate Harry's "speech"?

If that's the case, I would like to reiterate my question to Harry in hopes he'll answer:

Harry, what are you trying to do here at omidyar.net?

I've already stated the value I get from his being here. Maybe if people understand he's trying to do something other than lampoon and entertain via a clever pseudonym, they might tolerate his speech and style better.

harry,

your message is confusing. you got the link for transparency. you got the answer that thomas is o.k. with only 200 active members. now it seems that you are very angry that more money has not been donated to community generated projects? or is it that not enough money has been disbursed overall?

dafna

dear thomas,

i would have pointed it out but you already did. calling anyone a "self-absorbed asshole" is not constructive criticism. large oversized type also makes it feel like someone is yelling at me.

seeing a post like that definitely alienates me, and i believe that kind of communication should be discouraged in any way possible.

yet since you are willing to listen to the message and not the means of communication - perhaps you are just the one to renew my hope in omidyar.

the original issue that the 90-9-1 ratio of participation inequality is acceptable to omidyar.net seems to go against the original wish to transform society by involving as many people as possible in this social experiment. of course everyone is included but there are reasons why not everyone is involved.

something can and should be done to improve those odds. good luck, i hope you make the right choice.

i have returned to onet because my disability has become worse and this provides me with a much needed distraction. in fact this post may be the only productive thing i am able to accomplish today.

on that note i would like to point out that only you and richard have shown any concern or compassion towards my situation. my son and i fit harry's definition of "people in need" yet the others on this thread have conveniently skipped over that part. only you and richard have shown some concern. of course everyone is championing their own cause, but if even one project could be developed that i could use as a resource....

i would very much like to discuss with you what seems obvious to me. omidyar.net community's focus on "developing countries" is only a reflection of those members who have stuck around because their views are being supported and encouraged by Omidyar Network's focus - if you wish to make a distinction.

i will only give you one example of "a huge and tragic issue plaguing the u.s." thread that is dead in the water because of lack of support. only seven posts for the woman trying to connect medical providers in the u.s to americans who need coverage. we all must know this is a terrible crisis in the u.s. i posted a link on that thread to a washington post article about a recent avoidable death of a child because of a failure in the system.

i don't know how to start a new thread. this thread is about lack of participation on onet and the discussion i wish to have would be very involved. can you move this somewhere else? i believe given enough time i might be able to persuade you that the projects list contains not one project that would directly and continuosly affect an american in poverty/crisis.

what i am refering to is basic and immediate human needs such as food, shelter, clothing, medical care. does omidyar network believe that the federal governments social safety net is doing an adequate job? is there any "public housing" in your area? should you want to live in such a warzone, you could not get in. the public housing lottery has been closed in our county for five years. when it opened, i applied for a lottery number, but was not picked.

this means that should i become unable to pay my rent, my son and i would have to become homeless first, placed in a shelter (if one were available) and then moved up the list for public housing. some choose the safety of the streets over the government standards of public housing.

this took me literally hours to write. thank you in advance for reading it. i will try to post again or, if you move this discussion please PM me.

yours truly,

dafna

Dafna,

Thanks for sharing your story. I'd encourage you (and others) to take a look at Modest Needs.

From their home page:

Founded in 2002, Modest Needs is an award-winning charity that works to stop the cycle of poverty before it starts for low-income workers struggling to afford emergency expenses like those we've all encountered before: the unexpected auto repair, the unanticipated trip to the doctor, the unusually large winter heating bill.

At Modest Needs, we believe that EVERY person has the power to make a difference. So, by choice, the work we do at Modest Needs is funded exclusively by the 'small change' donations of people just like you.

(full disclosure: Modest Needs is one of Omidyar Network's investments)

dear thomas,

is that it?

have you actually read my post? we are already in the cylce of poverty. unless i find a "cure" for my disability or a viable social resource. my son and i will be trapped in the cycle of poverty.

modest needs provides one time assistance. i will ask them for help but it does not begin to tackle the huge and tragic issues facing many other americans like myself.

i was sincerely hoping for an open minded discussion. not a simple one time donation site.

perhaps this is where "harry's" extreme anger and frustration comes from?

i am asking more from omidyar network. have you read my proposal concerning charity and ebay as a distribution method? what is your opinion?

dafna

p.s.

"my story" is the same as millions of other americans, many of which are dealing with worse.

you don't have to be disabled to be impoverished, hungry, homeless, and without health insurance in america.

dafna

Dafna,

I believe that the first step toward finding a social resource is to get assistance from wherever it can come. That's why I suggested Modest Needs to you.

If you're asking Omidyar Network (not the omidyar.net community) to act on your proposal concerning charity, my opinion (which you're asking for) is that I don't think you've gotten or will get much traction for the idea because Omidyar Network is not in the business of charity.

Do others have suggestions for where Dafna might find the assistance she is (and others are) seeking?

Dear Harry,

My personal experience with the O-net is different. While living in Chad and working in a refugee camp near the Sudanese border I have been able to find people interested in the reality of the field. So much so that 3 O-net friends visited me in Chad and I met one more friend in India.

After my mission I will be travelling to the USA for several reasons; one of them being meeting people from the O-net comunity.

There is feedback on activities relating to Darfur which are very close to my heart. Other people have other issues they relate to.

Some of the people on the O-net are doing and have done things that amaze and inspire me.

So indeed you are right when you say that there are many inactive members. And indeed it is an issue when despite the endlesss possibilities of this network so few choose to be more participatory.

It sometimes feels a bit like a Mensa play ground, pissing contests going on, yet with all of the negative sides for me the positive effects outrank by far and I enjoy this network.

Whenever I can I try to make new people feel at home in this site.

And I try to share my experiences in the field.

So far for tonight

Namasakar,

Ashis

Thomas Kriese said:

as far as I can tell

I think you're telling a bit too far.

"Du gleichst den Geist, den du begreiftst -- nicht mir!!"

So don't start trying to tell me about how you think you "know" what I'm thinking -- and don't assume that your belief might be close, either!

>:-(

Dafna Orly Ronen said:

dear thomas,

is that it?

have you actually read my post? we are already in the cylce of poverty. unless i find a "cure" for my disability or a viable social resource. my son and i will be trapped in the cycle of poverty.

modest needs provides one time assistance. i will ask them for help but it does not begin to tackle the huge and tragic issues facing many other americans like myself.

i was sincerely hoping for an open minded discussion. not a simple one time donation site.

perhaps this is where "harry's" extreme anger and frustration comes from?

i am asking more from omidyar network. have you read my proposal concerning charity and ebay as a distribution method? what is your opinion?

dafna

Thomas, please, please think about that a bit,I know you have the smarts for it!

Dafna as many others come here looking for Much Needed answers

The Omidyar Network was promoted as a place that may Move the Needle that may be able to make a differance!

Thomas, have you ever lived in poverty? have you ever lived with zero money? I have! and I did it so I could learn!

anyway I know your heart is there so you may not need that hands on experience to get the drive!

but, I'm not so sure that you or any of the ONet staff really wants ONet to be that change , do you?

I do, but honestly the door appears closed! sure ONet is great for collaboration and ass-kissing patronism, but is it anything more?

I agree the Omidyar Network LLC, does do great wonderful things! but does ONet live up to it's potential? especially in respect to the time investments here?

Why can't there be a place, any place on the internet where someone like Dafna can go and at least get real leads to solutions if not the solution?

I was hoping that ONet would provide that!

proplem is we now have a pyramid type of structure here, one guy on the top, and one guy, any guy, even JC himself is not capable of running this type of show on thier own, no-one can wear enough hats to do the required job! we need expertice from many!

I doubt things will turn around here in my lifetime, it's taken 2+ years to get simple tagging and as GOOD as that is, it still but a fraction of whats needed.

I honestly believe that we might need to start looking else-where, I really don't think that ON is interested in ONet being a success anymore,

remember, it's not just Harry that is pushing the cart here, Ted tried, Sue tried, Cynthia, Brandon, and a dozen others,

and I am certain to leave unless "the community" the "whole" (the members, including ON staff), begin again on a equal footing, else it's "Closed Space" and mathematically impossible to succeed