While I'm not angelic :~)) I do try to to consider others feelings in most or important situations, however I'm sure I fall short many times over.

Yes, most of us try. I forgive you. :)

I am definitely NOT angelic either. I think the boundaries are so much blurrier with adults. It isn't that we steal someone's toys...rather, we disagree with their ideas, their approach, their actions (and sometimes that comes out in really mean, judgmental, critical ways). And while we all act like we have thick skins...most of us don't. Is it better not to hurt feelings or better to be authentic? And is this integrity? How are you defining integrity here, David?

Integrity is being your word. Being that your word matters, that what you said goes, in spite of how you later feel about it, or in spite of what comes up that you hadn't taken into account when you gave your word.

And, integrity is living inside of an empowering context. That is, you don't say things that don't honor who you are, including who you are to others.

What do you guys mean by "angelic"? Disembodied?

We mean we don't have wings and we don't fly (if you can imagine that!) therefore we are not perfect and we do make mistakes.

How do you know you aren't perfect? Or, what were you trying to do when you made a mistake instead?

You are perfect. And you don't make mistakes in life.

The first step to gaining "Integrity" is learning "not to lie" either to others or to one's self, after that "Integrity" sets easily into place.

What is perfect? Are we talking Buddhist perfect or Open Space perfect--like everything is exactly as it is supposed to be? Or perfect as in totally ideal, flawless in every way?

What is a lie? And how do you know when you are doing that?

Language and belief play such a huge role in these terms that it is nearly nonsensical to have a discussion with people coming from different paradigms.

What is perfect?

Perfect means without flaw, complete, whole, not defective.

When we call something imperfect, against what standard are we measuring it? Answer: against a standard we made up, or one that we got from someone else, ultimately it was invented.

Measures like those used to rate diamonds are useful for accomplishing the goals of the diamond industry, and perhaps the diamond buying public. Musical measures like tuning and metronome markings are useful for creating a certain kind of music. They thereby eliminate other types of music.

What are our measures useful for? If you call something about yourself an imperfection, what industry goal are you supporting?

The speaker held up a $20 bill and asked, "Who wants this?"

Most of the hands in the room went up.

He said, "Wait a minute," and crumpled up the bill, then held up the crumpled bill. "Anyone still want it?"

The same hands all went up.

He dropped it on the floor and began stamping it with his foot. "How about now?"

The point is that the bill is still worth exactly $20. Crumpling it and stomping on it do not make it imperfect. That's because the goal of the money minters is to increase economic activity, so the standard they set for value is not affected by wear and tear on the bill or coin.

What is our goal in valuing people the way we do?

nurturegirl@gmail.com (CCAL30) said:

What is a lie? And how do you know when you are doing that?

well, all I can say Jean :)

The less you lie, the better you know "What is a lie" ;)

The less you lie, the better you know "What is a lie" ;)

How can you lie without knowing the truth? A lie has to be intentional. (There's a fun little book called "On Bullshit" which makes some interesting distinctions regarding the difference between lies and BS. Mostly it's BS though.)

A lie is an attempt to manipulate someone by telling them something you believe to be false, and implying that you believe it's true.

The way you know you're doing that (if you find yourself talking to someone) is first you ask yourself,

1. "What do I want this person to do?" And then
2. "What do I have to say to get that person to do that?"

Then you say it, and ask yourself,

3. "Do I believe what I just said?"

that's pretty good! Dav

let me ask this,

you say, "How can you lie without knowing the truth?"

is it a lie when you say something and you don't know the truth?

What is truth? Ultimate truth? Truth as we know it? My truth in this moment? Or my truth in the future when I remember something or realize something or grow or learn?

There are lies and then there are lies. I will do my best never to lie, especially to a direct question. But I can only do my best. I can't promise it to be really true or true from some other point of view. These things are not really a black-and-white thing, they are a spectrum of believability and rigor.

Integrity means a lot to me. And I seem to be collecting testimonials that say that I am someone with integrity. But I am sure I fail at it regularly. But I am grabbing for it harder than those folks scrambling for the crumpled $20.

is it a lie when you say something and you don't know the truth?

No, that's the definition of bullshit. (Well, almost. Bullshit is when you say something and it doesn't matter at all to you whether it's true or not, but you want your listener to think you believe it.)

What is truth?

There are lots of definitions but I'd say, for my purposes, truth is what's predictable.

Lying isn't about objective truth or untruth, it's about what you believe. Constantine would have been lying if told someone the earth was round.

I will do my best never to lie, especially to a direct question. But I can only do my best.

Your best is plenty good. Lying isn't difficult, nor does it take any effort not to lie.

Integrity means a lot to me. And I seem to be collecting testimonials that say that I am someone with integrity.

The testimonials that matter are the ones that say you have no integrity.

But I am sure I fail at it regularly. But I am grabbing for it harder than those folks scrambling for the crumpled $20.

The more you take on, the bigger and more frequent your failures will be. The only way to stop failing is to die.

Integrity requires no effort. It is merely the state of being whole and complete, honoring your word, and living inside an empowering context. No amount of doing or striving or suffering or joy has any impact whatsoever on your integrity.

It's EASY to know when you are lying to someone else, the HARD part is to know when you are lying to yourself! ;)

Dav--we should talk about that. :-)

Brad--spot on!

:)

It's EASY to know when you are lying to someone else, the HARD part is to know when you are lying to yourself! ;)

OK, I'll bite.

One way you know you're lying to yourself is whenever you say anything is difficult. The truth is you don't want to do it. And doing something you don't want to do is actually very easy, I'd say each of us accomplishes that at least once a day, and most of us do it 100 times a day. No calories are burned in this process.

the HARD part is to know when you are lying to yourself!

Here is a more complete answer. There is an experience we all have had, of being fully alive and free. Like a 3 year old playing in the sprinklers.

Now, the only way to not have that experience (all the time) is to lie to yourself!

That's it! There is only one way to prevent yourself from experiencing total bliss, all the time!

So, to know whether you're lying to yourself, just answer the question, "Am I fully alive, totally free, amazingly powerful, and completely self expressed?"

If the answer is "Yes!" then you aren't lying to yourself! :)

Dav? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Direct experience.

And some reflection.

And listening to how it sounds after I say it.